INTERVIEW WITH MICHAEL CURRAN and GEOFF KNORR: NOVEMBER, 2010

ScoreNotes: Can you each describe the collaborative approach you took toward scoring Civilization V and was this the first time the two of you have worked together?

Michael Curran:  I met Geoff during the production of Civilization IV: Beyond the Sword. We were recording the menu choir music at a studio in Baltimore, and Geoff was interning there. He prepared the vocal score for the choir from my MIDI parts and did a great job. I was extremely impressed with him and decided then, that I wanted to work with him again. When we were looking to expand the audio department at Firaxis in 2008, he was hired.  I write in MIDI with orchestral and ethic instrument samples, and don’t really have the skills of an orchestrator. Geoff happens to be a great orchestrator, so it has been a perfect collaboration for me. He orchestrated all of the music that I composed in Civilization V for the live orchestra recordings.

Geoff Knorr:  The original music for Civilization V centers around the leaders of each playable civilization, so Michael divided the composition tasks between us by leader – each leader having a war piece and a peace piece.  To ensure diversity for leaders from similar geographical regions, such as Japan and China, Michael made sure that each region had each of us composing some of the music. 

When we had a presentable rough draft of a leader piece we were working on, we would play it for each other for comments and suggestions – I think the constant feedback from each other made sure we were both on the same page for the soundtrack, despite doing most of our composing work in the solitude of our offices. 

The last major step was orchestrating the music for the orchestral recording.  Michael handed off his finished MIDI mockup and Digital Performer sessions to me, and I translated and polished it for real orchestra musicians.  I also orchestrated my own music to fit within the instrumentation guidelines for the recording sessions.  Since I worked as the sole orchestrator on the project, I think this also contributed to giving the entire soundtrack a unified sound, despite being composed by two composers. 
ScoreNotes:  Did you enjoy the opportunity scoring an installment in a widely popular game franchise such as this?  Are there, in fact, any drawbacks or inherited challenges in taking on a project in an existing series?

Geoff Knorr: Scoring a game like Civilization V is an amazing experience.  The development team at Firaxis is phenomenal, so during the project, you know without a doubt that the final product is going to be excellent – and knowing that pushes a composer to rise and meet the challenge of composing music to truly match the game. 

One of the more personal challenges I felt with this project was the immense popularity of some of the music from Civilization IV.  Christopher Tin’s “Baba Yetu” used as the opening menu music for Civilization IV is a fan favorite around the world – it is apparently among the most commonly performed contemporary vocal pieces in the world – and an amazing composition.  It certainly raised the question for me as a composer, “what do I do now in Civilization V in the context of this immensely popular piece and all the fan expectations that might come from it?”  The answer was, basically, look at what’s in front of me – a brand new Civ game with new art, new gameplay mechanics, a new game engine, new AI, new everything...and therefore it should have new music to match the new game.  I think the popularity of “Baba Yetu” challenged me all the more to write excellent music, but, simultaneously, I didn’t feel like it had to be in a similar style – this is a new game.
 
I also really felt the support of the Firaxis team and 2K Games to take the music in direction Michael and I did for this iteration of Civilization, and I think the final results work wonderfully with the game. 

Michael Curran:  It has been a creative evolution for me – I’ve composed music for many earlier iterations of the Civilization series - going back to 2003 with Civilization III: Conquests, and for Civilization IV and its expansions, but this was the first opportunity for me to lead the design of the soundtrack for a major Civilization release.  Jon Shafer (Lead Designer), Dorian Newcomb (Art Director), and I were all on the same page from the beginning about what it should sound like. We all agreed that the soundtrack should be representative of all the cultures that are in the game, and we all wanted orchestral cinematic music as a unifying style. We agreed that it should always be supporting the mood of the game - like a movie soundtrack.
ScoreNotes:  With this being a videogame -- and one that looks amazing by the way -- I’d like to hear about some of the technology that went into the musical development.  Can you each talk about the blend of creativity and technical expertise that goes into a project like this?

Michael Curran:   The audio department here is pretty diverse in terms of the software we use. We each have our own way of putting the music together. I write in MIDI with Digital Performer on a Mac and Geoff writes in Sibelius and sequences his music in Logic. Ian Smith writes in Logic, and Roland Rizzo is now using ProTools to sequence MIDI. When we began writing, we didn’t know for sure that we were going to be able to record with a live orchestra, so we sequenced MIDI to sound as good as we could get it to sound. When we knew we were going to Prague to record with Andy Brick, Geoff began to prepare the scores for his compositions, and do the orchestrations from my MIDI sessions.

Geoff Knorr:  Most of the technology used to actually create the music is same as for film or TV. The more unique technical aspect specific to this game is when and how often to play each leader piece.  Each leader piece is specifically designed for a “leader screen,” which is separate from the game world map that the player primarily sees while playing.  We had to work with programming on when the leader music should continue playing “into the world” and when it should not.  As simple as it might sound, there were actually quite a few gameplay variations we had to account for to prevent something musically annoying from happening!
ScoreNotes:  Fresh off the heels of the Game Audio Conference on this topic, what are your thoughts about what game music can learn from film scores?  Also, was there a crossover of this type of philosophy in your approach to Civilization V?

Michael Curran: There are two ways that soundtracks can work to support the narrative of a movie or a game. One is very interactive and hugs close to the rise and fall of the image or emotion - or both. The other is more passive - it supports the mood in a big picture kind of way.  In writing music for film, the composer has the luxury of always knowing what is being paired with the music. It’s the same every time. In games, the narrative is interactive, so the music must be able to support the action as it evolves in a variety of potential directions. In Civ V, we were looking for music that would support the general mood but sound like movie music. 

There is something about the pairing of music and images - basically what happens in the mind of the spectator/viewer, when music is juxtaposed with a moving image – any moving image. The mind makes it make sense to a large degree. It’s crazy, but true really. I come from a film background, and this is something I learned back in college with my student films. I would take some music that I thought fit fairly well, and drop it in the soundtrack, expecting to have to move it around endlessly or cut between different musical pieces to follow the narrative – but it wasn’t like that. It would just fit somehow, no matter what happened on screen. The eye works with the ear and mind to justify all of it.  In games we can take advantage of this.  I've seen in a couple of forum threads about the soundtrack fitting so nicely, and changing to the events in the game. It really is the result of the right music and the player’s mind helping it along at critical events. In Civilization V, the score is interactive by its region, and by whether the player is at war or at peace with his neighbors. The rest is provided by the player himself, and a little divine chance.

Geoff Knorr:  I believe the workflow for the original music in Civilization V is the first time a Civ game has followed a more film score method of having specialized tasks in the music department divided amongst different teams/individuals.  On previous installments, it was the composer’s responsibility to write the music, record the music (if necessary), mix the music, and master the music.  For Civ V, most tasks had their own specific team or individual.  For large scale video game and film projects on a relatively tight schedule, the end result is inevitably of a higher quality, because you have so many pairs of ears, in parallel, listening, critiquing, correcting, and tweaking.  Not everything was assigned to a different team or individual though – for instance, I was responsible not only for the composition of around half of the music, but also all of the orchestration, the copyist work, and the Pro Tools session setup.  It all worked out fine because we had the time – however, if we were on a tighter schedule, we would have certainly needed a few more people to get everything done on time.  

The musical style we were after for Civilization V was also influenced by film scores.  We sought to create a kind of refined cinematic musical style consistent through all the music, no matter what its particular cultural flavor might be.  The ethnic influence in the pieces needed to be more prevalent than the grand Hollywood influence though, and in many of the film scores we listened too, just the opposite was true – it was mostly a grand Hollywood sound with just a little ethnic mixed in. 

ScoreNotes:   What type of feedback and interaction was there from the game development leads along the way with Civilization V and how pleased were they with the end result of the music?

Michael Curran:   The lead designer, Jon Shafer, and art lead, Dorian Newcomb were involved from the beginning, helping to set the tone and direction for the whole audio design including the soundtrack. We began meeting with them back in the summer of 2008, and continued to meet on a weekly basis for about a year. By the fall of 2008, the first leader music was being written, and toward the end of the year we started putting potential licensed music before them. We would all weigh in on what we thought worked or didn't work and why. Geoff sat in on many of these meetings as well before he came on to the project full time in June of 2009. I think that everyone involved is happy with how the soundtrack and sound design works in the finished game.

Geoff Knorr:  Early in the development cycle, we met regularly to share early mock-ups of leader pieces and get feedback.  After a few iterations for a few different leaders, we were all essentially on the same page, and the meetings became fewer and farther in-between.  For about the last six months of the project, everything was on autopilot in terms of direction because Jon, Dorian, and Michelle Menard (associate producer) had to focus their attention on other aspects of the game.

Since this is the first time the music team at Firaxis has worked with a live orchestra for recording, I think everyone on the dev team was very impressed, and perhaps even surprised by the quality of the end results. 
ScoreNotes:  As composers, how fascinating was it to explore the existing musical references that you incorporated into the score and how did you decide on the content you eventually chose to use?

Michael Curran: The idea of basing the leader music on existing melodies has been part of the music design of the Civilization series going back several iterations. When we set out to write the leader music in Civilization V, we definitely wanted to continue this - it gives the player a real sense of place, and helps to further drive the virtual identity of playing as a particular leader. The research involved in this is something that I have enjoyed immensely. This time around we tried to be as authentic as possible and we were able to find at least fragments of melody for every leader in the game – something we were not able to achieve before. Aside from authenticity, we were looking for really strong melodies - so in cases where we found many to choose from, we went with what we thought were likely to be most memorable.

Geoff Knorr: Exploring the incredibly diverse musical cultures around the world as we searched for our musical references was one of the most amazing and ear-opening experiences of the project.  I took a class in ethnomusicology while studying at Peabody, but the class only covered a fairly narrow range of cultures, simply due to time restrictions.  This was the first time I listened to many of the musical styles incorporated in the score.

Sometimes in our searching we would run across videos on Youtube of phenomenal performances.  I remember a video of a performance of the song “Morghe Sahar,” which was the musical reference for Persia in the game – as the camera pans over the audience you see tears rolling down a grown man’s face.  I just got this sense that this song connected so deeply with Persians – and I wanted my version of it to bring a similar emotional response to a Persian if they listened. 

Ultimately, that’s what our decisions came down to – is someone from that culture going to be proud that this is their theme music?  Are they going to recognize it and own it?  We wanted the music to convey a strong national identity for each leader.  Eventually a few melodies would surface to the top as possibilities for each leader – then I just chose my personal favorite.  
ScoreNotes:  I’m sure you both get asked this question often, but what do you enjoy most about the possibilities that video games can offer a composer?

Michael Curran: With Civilization in particular, I feel that the possibilities are endless – as limitless as the scope of the game itself. As source material and inspiration, we have all the music ever created anywhere, from the beginning of time and into the projected future. What more could a composer ask for? There are many musical styles that we have only scratched the surface with in a Civilization game - but who knows, if the right design comes along, any style of music is potentially there to explore. Civilization IV: Colonization is a good example of a game that allowed me as a composer, to focus on a very unique and specific style of music. I played a harmonium to mimic the Early American melodeons and reed organs of the 19th century. I had a lot of fun with that.

Geoff Knorr:  It’s great getting to work with the dev team – many video game composers unfortunately aren’t as in touch with the dev team as Michael and I were able to be for Civilization V.  Seeing the game slowly morph from a prototype into a polished, captivating game is pretty amazing.  Video games also generally give the composer more time to work on the music – although there are some exceptions of course!
ScoreNotes: How impressed were you with the visuals that accompany this game?  From what I have seen, there is quite an impressive blend of imagery and music at work here. 
Geoff Knorr:  When Michael and I first saw the renders of the opening movie from Digic, we were just blown away.  Playing the game is certainly a different kind of experience than the opening movie, and the art and animation team at Firaxis has put together a wonderfully vibrant, interactive, and rich world for the player to explore (and conquer!). 

Michael Curran:  I think Civilization V has the most beautiful landscape that has ever been created for a game. I just hear Aaron Copland when I see it.

ScoreNotes:  I have found that this score serves a dual role for listeners in that one can be entertained and educated by it.  How fulfilling is to have created a body of work that provides such a positive impact?
Geoff Knorr:  The reality is we have only revealed the tip of the iceberg in bringing the music of other cultures to the listeners – and we have done it relatively gently by combining everything with the Western symphony orchestra.  It is fulfilling in the sense that the “tip” is there for the listener to hear, but so much remains for both me and the listener to explore.  I hope that perhaps a few of the avid listeners will feel the urge to check out some of these musical styles more deeply.  If in the future I work on a project that requires a similar diverse array of musical styles, I hope to work with more musicians from each culture as a way of going deeper. 

Michael Curran:  I think that there is an educational value to the music, as there is to the game itself. Civilization players are very diverse in their musical tastes, and I feel that since the first Civilization game, we have been able to introduce many musical genres to players that might otherwise not have been exposed to such a wide range of music. Although we were not looking to be historically accurate above all else, it was important that we understood the historical context of the music were adapting. The most important goal of course was to create a soundtrack that fit the game, and contributed to the overall experience. I also feel that we have created something very special and enjoyable as music outside the context of the game and I am very proud of that.

ScoreNotes: What are some of the press venues that are made available to composers for a high profile game such as this?  Also, do you enjoy the interview circuit in general?

Michael Curran: This is the first soundtrack I have worked on that has received this amount of press coverage, and perhaps that is a reflection of the growing interest in game music. I also believe that we have created something very special and unique for Civilization V. I am very proud of the work we have done on this game and it has been a pleasure to discuss it in detail for the fans. 

Geoff Knorr: Most of our interviews have come from online sites that specialize in reviewing game music – two that notably come to mind are 1UP.com and Square Enix Music Online (www.squareenixmusic.com).   In general, my impression is that the press venues for the soundtrack itself are not as plentiful as in the film world.  The vast majority of the press goes towards the actual gameplay and features of the game (which certainly makes sense). 

We certainly love sharing the music we’ve composed for the game with as many people as we can and letting them in on how it was all created and prepared for the game.  Sometimes it can be somewhat time-consuming, but it also makes long bus rides to and from NYC go by faster! 
ScoreNotes: Please fill us in on any upcoming individual activities that you’d like to share.

Michael Curran:  Right now I am working on music and sound design for some of the Civilization V DLC packs that are coming. I’ve also been collaborating with Andy Brick, who was the conductor for the Filmharmonic Orchestra Prague recording sessions for Civilization V. We are putting together a suite of music from Civilization V to be premiered in Vancouver, Canada at the “PLAY! A Video Game Symphony” concert on December 6, 2010 with the Vancouver Symphony and Chorus.  Andy is going to orchestrate the suite of music, and will be the conductor at the world premier and as it tours in 2011.

Geoff Knorr:  I’m currently working with Sid Meier on the sound design for a Civilization game for Facebook.  I’m also teaching a class on game audio at the Peabody Institute in the spring, so I have quite a bit of preparing to do for that.  Meanwhile, I’m preparing to be a father – my wife and I are expecting our first child, a baby girl, in February!
Special Thanks to Kelley Gilmore and Peter Murray from Firaxis Games/Take Two Interactive
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